Real Job Talk

We welcome Leanne Elliott, an organizational psychologist, to talk about how to manage fairly in our current divided world. We thank Magic Mind for their support and help with clarity, focus, and sleep. Our friends at Magic Mind are giving our listeners 45% off their products (they have both clarity and sleep). If you want to try it, get 45% off the Magic Mind bundle with our link: https://www.magicmind.com/REALJOBTALKJAN There’s a money-back guarantee, so try it if you’re curious. Leanne grew up knowing she always wanted to be a psychologist from a young age. After a friend lost her mom she saw how a psychologist helped kids understand and process their feelings. She wanted to help as many people as possible, so she learned how to help organizations build cultures that validate feelings, process difficult situations, and move forward through productive problem-solving and discourse. Leanne is the owner of Oblong HQ, a consultancy helping companies with their cultures and leadership as well as the co-host of the most popular Hubspot podcast (and one of our favorites) Truth, Lies, and Work (https://truthliesandwork.com). We were guests on Truth, Lies, and Work, and we are thrilled to have Leanne with us today. For Leanne, a positive outcome of the recent US election is that we know the winner and we can try to anticipate what things may look like going forward. A lot of anxiety was built up around that “who will win?” question; knowing the answer gives us a place to start. She calls out the exhaustion from the last few years with the economic and political instability. She says that burnout is happening at much higher rates with a compounded stress of life, cost of living, geopolitical change, and uncertainty. Leanne is focused on helping organizations avoid this burnout with some relatively simple culture shifts. There are things you can do to create a workplace culture. It’s not complex, but it needs to be approached with consistency, dedication, and intention. Talk about politics or religion can bring more tension. People talk about it because it impacts them. We can look at bringing teams back together and building cohesion around both tasks and social, starting with the tasks and insisting on civility. Make sure each team member knows that their role is to push work forward. Understanding each person’s contribution can build trust and camaraderie, which can then build social cohesion. Revisiting vision and values whenever you look at strategy will help to make sure your company is living the words they’re saying and that people understand the 'why' behind what they are doing. Making sure your team understands the WHY behind decisions and changes so that they can get on board (or not). Knowing the why gives people autonomy in their decisions. Managers impact our employee experience, and when managers communicate effectively, it drastically improves employee experience. Around the election, she talks about Trump transcending politics because he challenges the belief that leaders should stand for good in the world. His election makes us rethink everything in this geopolitical environment. We’ve seen far-right swings all over the world, not just in the US, but for all of us the acceptance of behavior we’ve been counseling against for our whole careers is unsettling. Kat advises to focus on what we can control. Leanne adds that the psychological transition between accepting what we can control and changing what we can control in a world that feels out of control is challenging. When we’re in the ending phase where our beliefs are challenged, there are uncomfortable negative feelings that we show both emotionally and physiologically. We need to process to move forward. Talking with a therapist, journaling- actually writing things down- and processing can really remove stress. We’re seeing a trend of employees wanting to move to a different state or country. HR leaders are trying to figure out what to do. Leanne encourages tring to understand what’s behind these requests to move. It’s probably linked to personal reasons and fears. Once you understand that, you can start to understand what we can do as an organization to support people in the location they’re currently in. Helping our people understand what’s happening in their minds and bodies helps them to not feel alone and be able to understand next steps in a more informed way. The time to actively deal with people’s stress in your organization is now. Helping them understand who you are as an organization and why you’re making decisions around policies (locations included) will help you stay productive. Taking the time to explain what’s happening to your employees will pay off in spades. To keep teams cohesive, Leanne advises to avoid topics like the situation in Gaza. Whatever you decide, make sure to have a team culture mandate and making sure that we measure behavior and call out any behavior that could be toxic and eliminate it by showing how to challenge and eliminate behaviors we have agreed are not ok. This will bring civility, trust, and control. Civility is the only thing that is directly related to our employee experience. Civility includes allowing people to show up as their authentic selves. Managers NEED to be allotted time to manage, and they need to be held accountable for their performance as a manager. Then they have to listen and try to understand, but they will not always feel like they have all the answers. As a manager, ask questions and reflect feelings back on people, and make time in your calendar for office hours. HR can have a list of resources for employees and managers, and managers can show what resources, programs, and professionals are available for your people. If you don’t have resources like an EAP (Employee Assistance Program), this is the time to get one….

Our final episode in our series on employee experience is about helping people who are leaving the company have a positive experience as they move on. Helping someone leave gracefully, providing a great last few days, and transitioning their work smoothly does just that. (If you’re the person leaving, listen to RJT Episode 55: The Art of Quitting (https://realjobtalk.com/55-the-art-of-quitting)) When someone gives notice unexpectedly, what do you do? First, talk with them and understand their why. This is an opportunity for learning- could you have prevented it? What you learn could help you in retaining the rest of your people and recruiting new ones. Come in with curiosity, remorse, and ZERO defensiveness. This is a time to learn, and you need to calmly be wishing the person well. As the person leaving, you want to be consistent in your why- you’re going to be asked why you’re leaving by your manager, HR, upper management, and peers- have your story consistent so that others aren’t caught flat-footed when learning about your reason for leaving. If the person talks about things you could have prevented (for example, they were bored or felt stunted), sincerely apologize. Promise them that you will be better for the folks left behind. This helps with the leaver’s employee experience, but also they will help you by telling others things will improve (and you need to follow up on your promises!). Once you’ve learned, talk about how THEY want to transition. Do they want a party celebrating their time on the team? Have they thought about transitioning the work? What and who do they suggest to take on different tasks? You will learn even more from that conversation and understand the inner workings of the job and team which will help with managing the group moving forward. How you communicate the change to the rest of the team is important too. Talk about how the transition will work; if you’re recruiting, ask for referrals or interest; and make sure the messaging is consistent and clear for the team to know how to work together to move forward without this person. If the person doesn’t want people to know the real reason they are leaving (for example, a health issue), put together a clear and consistent message that the person is comfortable with. For HR and leadership, make sure that your processes for leaving are clear. Where do computers, badges, and other equipment go? What happens with benefits? Paychecks? Vacation? Make it easy for the person to leave by having clear processes. For HR folks, if you learn from a leaver that the manager is nasty, look into it and see if there are things you can learn and do to improve the team’s experience moving forward. While we’re against guilt trips for people who are leaving, we’re all for telling them that you liked working with them and making a plan to keep in touch. You don’t need to lose a friend because someone has left. And as a company, a big source of hires are bounce-backs - people who leave a company and then later return. Every person who leaves (either voluntarily or involuntarily) needs to be treated with dignity and respect and clarity for company reputation (unhappy people LOVE posting Glassdoor reviews), open the door for future hires, and putting good messaging out in the community.

Exciting new idea: we are doing a series on employee experience! Today’s episode is number 3 talks about the employee experience of every day life as an employee. This is about understanding what each employee needs and wants and providing the training, tools, mentorship, and guidance to help them be successful. And for employees, it means showing up and being the best you can be. Generally, people leave companies because of lack of a supportive manager and/or a fear about the company’s future. They also leave because of career development, compensation, and logistics like commutes. The #1 important thing about being an employee is the mutual understanding of what is expected and what it’s like to be in each role (meaning the manager needs to understand what their team member’s days are like). How do you find out? Do your 1:1 meetings and learn what their day is like. What do they like or not? Understand if your people are happy. One great question to ask in a 1:1 is: what surprises have come up? Another is: what surprises have you experienced? We share an example of a person having 2 jobs at competitors at once….and we blame the managers for not knowing they have the capacity for more. But, we also tell employees to communicate their capacity, their issues (along with solutions), and their goals so that their manager understands their role. Companies, groups, and managers need to create psychologically safe places to bring up issues and when bringing them up, ICs, try to bring solutions. Oh, and managers, you don’t have all of the answers so get your team to brainstorm together to come up with the best solution. Good managers understand an employee’s desire for challenge. Performance and career management are separate, but both related to employee experience which is why managers need to talk with employees to understand what they want from the job. You need to communicate with your manager about what you like and don’t like. Performance management and Career Management are NOT the same thing. That said, you have to do a good job in your current role, even if you’re not looking to move up the career ladder. Being able to communicate that you’re happy to stay in your current role and not take on new challenges should be safe (managers listen up!), but you need to perform in your current role or ask for time off/accommodations to keep your performance strong. A key piece of employee success is communication. Putting promised deliverables in a note or email, preemptively explaining missed deliverables, and keeping all stakeholders informed of progress. Getting stuck and not asking for help can lead to performance issues. We recommend you reaching out so that you don’t remain stuck in the mud, missing deliverables, and having poor performance. You’d help others, so check your ego at the door and let them help you. That said, don’t be the person always in crisis- it’s a performance issue. Being a team member is about give and take, so do your piece in the give and take of the team to avoid getting stuck. And when someone on your team is stuck, come up with solutions and try to help, even if there’s another solution that’s adopted. Net net, communication is the key to employee experience. Keep information, solutions, and updates flowing and your experience will be a good one.

We're doing a series of podcast episodes on employee experience! Today’s episode is number 2, which talks about the importance of the onboarding process. This episode is for EVERYONE AND ANYONE who is involved with the onboarding process -- managers, leaders, candidates, and interviewers. "Onboarding" is the term used for the plan and process for welcoming someone to a company and getting them trained up for their new role. Onboarding is a, if not THE, critical piece of employee success. According to a Jobvite 2020 survey, 1 in 3 hires leaves a job in the first 90 days. In a Bamboo HR report about onboarding, they found that 70% of people decide if a job is right for them in the 1st 30 days, and 20% decide in the first week. Given these overwhelming stats, onboarding is a critical piece of employee experience, and if not done well, it can lead to attrition, high costs, and overall hits to morale. First impressions are essential, and those first days are crucial in making a first impression about what a job will be like. Onboarding can be broken down into several layers: * Paperwork and logistics. HR will usually handle your paperwork (proof of ID, where to park, work hours, etc); it is more process-oriented and mechanical. * Training. Your team and manager (the focus of this podcast) Onboarding happens over a few months. Before you start. Hopefully, HR will send some material to inform you about the company and welcome you to the team - things like corporate logo swag, gifts, and welcome packages. That said, the key piece of welcoming someone before they start is the team supporting and welcoming someone as they go through leaving their old position and transitional activities necessary to start a new role. The silence between signing and starting brings anxiety to a new hire. Managers and folks on the team can call or email and say they can’t wait to see you. Every new hire should have an itinerary for their first day, including a lunch if they’re in the office. Managers should make a 30-60-90 outline (with input from the new hire) with people to meet, systems to log into, and projects to catch up on. Having a checklist is so helpful in letting a new hire know what they need to do. Managers, another tip is to assign your new person a buddy so that they have a “ask me anything and you won’t feel dumb” person. This will help the new hire get up to speed tremendously. Once the person has started, another way to welcome them to the team is to send an introduction to the company or team. Make sure the new hire has approved the information that you are sending out. Also, have a senior leader personally welcome them to the company. A 1-minute email or a 15-minute meet and greet makes a world of difference. Even if you're not their manager, do you have a new hire that has joined your team? Reach out and set up time with them. Be a self-appointed part of the welcoming committee and share your tips and tricks that made your onboarding successful. Another tip: make sure your new hire is invited to all relevant meetings (including the social ones), documents, and projects. We remember the helpers and the people who check in with us and include us while we’re onboarding. Have you heard of "the 3 week freak out?" In week 3 on a new job, you’ve learned enough about what you need to do and feel overwhelmed, and we PROMISE that feeling will be gone by month 3. Don’t let the 3 week freak out ruin a new job experience. Make sure you check in on new hires at 3 weeks to see how they’re doing and reassure them. Our mentor, J. Mike Smith, always uses the question, “What surprised you?”, in order to get more focused insights while reflecting on projects or processes. When you’ve onboarded someone, ask what surprised them -- and then make sure you adjust your onboarding program proactively for next time. Onboarding occurs throughout the first YEAR (each annual event and each seasonal activity is their first in the new role), so checking in and taking the temperature on a new hire (and on all employees…..) continually is so so important. One-on-one check-ins are vital for maintaining employee experience. When a new hire is coming in mid-project, make sure that they are updated, and if you're in the middle of a working meeting, let them know “we’ll talk about this later so I can catch you up” so they don’t feel lost. Background information is so helpful in getting someone up to speed. When you’re a new hire and going through your own onboarding process, make sure to watch and to listen. Learn the culture and norms. Jump in, but also stay quiet and learn so that you can truly understand the place you joined.

We had an exciting new idea -- with today's episode, we kick off a series of episodes looking at the employee experience from many different angles. Today’s episode is number 1 in the series. We start by talking about the very beginning of the employee experience: the recruiting process. Future episodes will include onboarding, being an employee, career development, and leaving a company. This episode is for EVERYONE AND ANYONE who is involved with the recruiting process -- managers, leaders, candidates, and interviewers. We've talked a lot about the recruiting process from the applicants perspective many times, but we also think looking through the eyes of folks inside the company is super informative, so in this episode, we look at that perspective as well. *What is employee experience? *Employee experience is just that - the experience of working somewhere. We believe this experience starts even before you’ve interacted with a company, with your thoughts on their brand as an employer, but it starts being solidified in the recruiting process with your experience as a candidate. The candidate experience starts with the application. Recruiters/hiring managers, have you checked out your application process lately? Is it up to date? Does it ask for a "Twitter" handle? If so, time to update. We recommend you apply to your jobs at least quarterly to make sure that it’s a smooth, easy, and pain-free process. Our list of advice for people that are hiring: GET BACK TO EVERY CANDIDATE. The least you can do is loop back with candidates who show interest, and especially who have participated in your interview process. Update candidates on the status of the job. Even if it’s a message that your process is taking more time than anticipated, some update is better than no update. Update when the job is closed or if it goes on hold too. If you ask for something in the process (a test, questions, a cover letter), make sure you actually look at it. Don't waste people's time. Feedback can be hard to get, so if you can give non-subjective feedback that can help the candidate, do it. Build an experience where every conversation is different. Don't waste the time of the applicant or the interviewers. Know your candidates and make sure every conversation is a different one that adds value and adds to how you both see each other. (It’s so nice we said it twice) Have a no ghosting policy. When you disappear and never get back to a candiate, you potentially lose business based on the way you treat people. Tell people where you are in the process and let them know what’s coming. It’s great as a candidate to know what’s coming next and how far you are along the journey. And, when you bring in someone later in your overall hiring process, let them know that others are farther along. Keep questions relevant to the job. Do do otherwise is potentially illegal, and non-relevant questions easily cross into topics that could make someone feel uncomfortable. Make sure you leave time for the candidate to ask questions to you, and answer honestly. Don’t blow smoke. Don’t tell someone they’re "perfect for a role," that you "want to work with them," or that can "see them on the team" if you’re not going to give an offer. You can say you like someone, but giving false hope or, even worse, asking a candidate to clear their calendar for onboarding and then turning them down is a bad candidate experience. Respond to thank yous! A “great to meet you too” goes a LONG way. It improves your employer brand and it helps prevent the candidate feel like they sent a useless note off into the void. Be decisive. There is no bench where you keep a candidate on hold. If you like someone, hire them. If you don’t, let them go. Make sure your whole team interviewing candidates is clear all the aspects of what you're doing: their role and part in the process, job description, ideal candidate profile, required skills, etc. Everyone should be aligned on expectations -- the hiring manager, hiring team, executive sponsor, and the recruiting team. In the offer process, make the candidate feel special. Tell them why you wanted THEM on your team, how you see them contributing, and how excited the team is about them and offer time and resources for them to get their questions asked. Let someone have time to think about the offer, but have members of the team (execs and peers) reach out. Show them the welcome wagon even before they sign.

A special episode: Liz and Kat are guests on the Truth, Lies, & Work Podcast, where they talked about difficult conversations at work. Check out this episode with Liz and Kat on Difficult Conversations at Work (https://link.chtbl.com/ovhKymhi), epsiode 137 of the Truth, Lies & Work podcast (https://truthliesandwork.com). Listen to the episode right here or listen to this bonus episode right here in your Real Job Talk feed. Episode notes Welcome to Truth, Lies & Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. Join hosts Leanne Elliott, chartered psychologist, and Al Elliott, business owner, as they help you simplify the science of work. In today’s episode, we’re tackling one of the most challenging aspects of workplace dynamics - having difficult conversations. We’re joined by two outstanding experts in the world of people and culture, Kathleen Troyer and Liz Bronson, co-hosts of the Real Job Talk podcast. Together, they share practical advice on how to handle conflict, polarizing topics, and tough discussions at work. Meet Our Guests: • Kathleen Troyer is the CEO and Lead Consultant at Jigsaw Solutions Inc., where she specializes in leadership development and business strategy. Known for helping leaders engage in uncomfortable but necessary conversations, Kat shares her insights on creating psychologically safe workplaces. • Liz Bronson, a Global Professional in Human Resources (GPHR), has dedicated her career to fostering inclusive and supportive company cultures. Her experience spans companies like Barclays Global Investors, VMware, and ThriveCart. Key Discussion Points: The Impact of External Events on Workplace Dynamics Kat and Liz discuss how global events like political upheavals, economic instability, and distressing news have forever altered how we interact in the workplace. How to Defuse Tension and Maintain a Positive Culture In today’s polarized world, workplace conflict is inevitable. Our guests explore how leaders can guide difficult conversations, focusing on empathy, transparency, and respect. Bringing Your Whole Self to Work Kat and Liz debate whether this is truly feasible in today's diverse workplaces and discuss the importance of creating inclusive environments where everyone feels they belong, regardless of differing opinions. Aligning Company Values with Employee Behavior Kat and Liz stress the importance of living company values, not just displaying them on a wall. When to Have the Uncomfortable Conversation Our guests provide practical advice on how to approach difficult conversations when tensions rise in the workplace.

We have a letter! A listener asks us what they should do if everything is just good. They’re restless: work is good, they make good money, have work/life balance, but they're wondering if this is it. Our listener’s name is “Restless” and we explore how they should approach this mid-career moment. First - everything is relative. The grass can be greener on someone else’s hill, but your grass may be really green to someone else. We tell Restless that they need to explore why they’re feeling this way. What is at the root of their restlessness? Is there something they want to achieve that they haven’t? In the meantime, we told Restless to seek out some new projects, find out what other teams are working on, and see if he could participate or at least listen in. Career mid-life crises are just as common as life mid-life crises. So, what do you do? Assess what’s going well and what you don’t want, and see if you can learn something new or push yourself in a new area to keep yourself moving. We stress that learning and staying on top of trends and technologies is always important and going on a learning mission will help them feel fresh and less stuck. We send Restless on a journey to understand their internal desires as well as an external exploration of what they aren’t doing. Start asking people - internally and externally - what they are working on, and see if you can join in - or at least observe to learn and expand your knowledge. By learning about what others are working on, we can be inspired and think of new things that are exciting. We also tell Restless that sometimes in life we are all in at work, and sometimes we are doing our job and focusing on other things. Restless says they have work/life balance. We tell them to really lean into that and go to the baseball game, or appreciate that family time. Restless’ life sounds pretty awesome: good pay, work/life balance, remote work, and interesting projects. We caution them to be careful when framing their restlessness so that they open a dialogue and not annoy people. It’s a pretty sweet situation and while we love the candor for us, they need to be really aware of their audience and approach the conversation from a place of curiosity vs complaining. We tell Restless to lean into gratitude as an antidote for complacency and to look at work as a part of a whole, rich life.

We’re talking from experience about red flags, especially in the job search process, where your gut fits into decision making and how to listen for those flags. Kat tells her story from 20 years ago about her first HR Leadership role where she joined a company working for a husband and wife team. The offer was lower than her comfort zone with a bonus to get her there. She then needed to clock in, which is unknown in leadership roles. When Kat got home from her first week on the job, she said to her husband, “One week down, 51 to go”, but in reality, she left after 6 months to preserve her mental health and well-being. This decision led to Kat starting her own business which has been thriving for 21 years. Liz’s story is more recent. A recruiter sent an AI-written no-personality job description, and then there was a fast interview process which led to a funky feeling. The offer came with terrible benefits - a big red flag that shows you don’t care about people. The red flags were all true, and while she tried to focus on the positive, it ended up being untenable and her gut got a lot less twisty once she left. One big flag to point out is this: would you take the job if you had a job? If the answer is no, why? If it’s because things don’t feel right, listen to that! Official advice #1: The Job Description: Is it written by AI? Boring? Trying to help draw you in? Include company values? Do you know what the company does, what the job is, is there a career page selling you on the company? Official advice #2: The recruiting process. What’s it like? Do you feel they know you at all? Is there a decision process or does it go on forever? Have you met your boss, a few colleagues? It’s a red flag if you don’t feel like they know what they want and what they’re looking for. Official advice #3: Look at Glassdoor, PunchBowl, Reddit, and other sites that talk about the experience working at the company. Look for threads in the reviews- not just the 1 from an angry employee. Look at the recent feedback on what it’s like there. The score is important, but know that companies try to manipulate their score….pay attention if there are lots of positive reviews with zero substance. Official advice #4: Is the team diverse? Look on Linkedin and see who works there. Is everyone white and under 30 in suits and ties? Do they indicate that they want diverse teams and points of view? Official advice #5: Does the benefits package indicate that they care about their people? What’s covered? How much are they contributing? We’ve never seen a great place to work with terrible benefits. Official advice #6: Do they encourage your questions? Answer directly? Belittle you for asking questions? RED FLAG. If you ever feel like your requests are being blown off, word salad or more, it’s a huge indicator of what the company is like to work at. Official advice #7: Your gut is saying no. If you’re not excited about signing the offer, it’s for a good reason. It’s hard to not listen to your brain and your bank account, but let your gut have a say in the decision. If you do go against your gut, we’ve got some clear advice for you. Don’t announce it on Linkedin right away. Don’t stop interviewing >> if your brain and your bank account win out and you try something new, it’s ok to keep interviewing if you really don’t think it’s a fit. Be artfully honest when people ask you how things are going- lead with the positive, but tell people you’re still open to new opportunities. If it’s not a big fit, look for the good people you haven’t met, the story, the learnings. There are good things that come out of good stints.

We have a letter! One of our listeners wrote to us with a question. They are stuck with what to do with their golden hancuffs. Their current employer was acquired by a larger company. The company wants them to stay, and has given them a year-long series of bonuses and severance if they stay long enough. But they'd also like to look around to see if there are other opportunities. They don’t know what to do about their bonus package in the job search: can they disclose it? Can they use it as leverage it as part of a job negotiation? It’s a great question, and while we counseled them separately, we share our advice with each of you. What ARE golden handcuffs? They’re a way that a company incentivizes you to stay with them vs leave after a major change. For example, our listener’s company was acquired and they have golden handcuffs that pay them over the next 6 months to stay with the company vs leave for another job. For our listener, they get bonuses every 3 months and then another payment if you stay through the pre-determined transition period. Because our listener is early career, we advised them to stay and get experience with acquisitions and use the bonus package to accumulate a nest egg (assuming they can tolerate it). And we also advised them to not start looking for a new job right away, and instead to take time to make a must-have list, and then start searching 3 months before their last day. Can our listener use their package to get more money? If YOU are applying for jobs, you can’t use a retention program as leverage, but once someone is interested, or if you are being recruited, you may be able to use it. You can say “I’d love to be considered, but I have this retention package and am planning on staying through the end. Can you help keep me whole?” They likely won’t pay it all out, but maybe it will get you a sign-on bonus. Deciding what’s right to do? Look at your must-have list, look at what you want to learn, and as opportunities come your way, make lists of pros and cons guided by your must-have list to balance learning, opportunity, stability, and happiness. Another interesting opportunity may come from the new company, so doing your best post-acquisition and learning about the new company, new ways to do things, and meeting a new network of people is a huge opportunity. Post-acquisition retention is an incredible learning opportunity. You have the opportunity to see how a new company does things and also see new groups and meet new people. Use the opportunity to learn and grow. If you do get approached for a new job, tell them right away that you’re planning on staying through the period of your retention bonus and let them know what it looks like to see if they can help move you earlier. Stress that you’re most interested in learning, growth, and opportunity, and you’re willing to give up money for the right opportunity. If you know you’re talking with a recruiter, write notes and make sure you’re ready for a clear and open conversation. Be confident in who you are, what you’re looking for, and what’s important to you.